they have kind of signaled that in the most recent senate election where harry reid's guy lost and the anti-tax candidate won in nevada. so the tax issue is a powerful issue. i understand it comes with the territory, that people attack me personally. it doesn't bother me. i'm very comfortable in my own skin. if they want to waste their time personally attacking me, they're free to do so. but taxes are too high. spending is too high. this needs to be changed and i think the american people will make it clear as time unfolds that raising taxes is not where they want to go. >> grover norquist, thanks very much for joining us. >> thanks, wolf. >>> let's get another point of view right now. joining us, dick durbin, assistant majority leader, the senator from illinois. senator, thanks very much for coming in. we just heard from grover norquist, several republicans on capitol hill this week have said they would consider defying his pledge but for some of them, raising revenue just means getting rid of loopholes or capping some deductions, not raising tax rates or letting tax cuts expire. is t